CQ Roll Call May 24, 2013 | Register

Arming People Doesn't Stop Mass Murders

Mother Jones looks at 30 years of mass shootings and finds in not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun.

“Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.”

“There is no evidence indicating that arming Americans further will help prevent mass shootings or reduce the carnage… To the contrary, there appears to be a relationship between the proliferation of firearms and a rise in mass shootings: By our count, there have been two per year on average since 1982. Yet 25 of the 62 cases we examined have occurred since 2006. This year alone there have already been seven mass shootings—and a record number of casualties, with more than 140 people injured and killed.”

  • shockwave456

    Facts won’t get in the way of the NRA and the teabaggers.

    • James1754

      Facts do not get in they way of Mother Jones either. Just Google the subject.

    • DilloTank

      You are a slime. If anyone ever calls me a ‘teabagger’ to my face, I am going to break their nose.

      • shockwave456

        I’m the slime? You’re the one threatening violence, teabagger. Oh, the irony.

  • Buddi74

    Mother Jones must not have looked very far for instances of armed civilians stopping mass shooting incidents.

    10/1/1997 – Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.

    4/24/1998 – Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.

    1/16/2002 – Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.

    2/25/2005 – David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with a rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.

    12/9/2007 – Matthew J. Murray entered the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado and killed 2 people, then went to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado killing 2 more. He was shot and injured by church member Jeanne Assam and commit suicide before police arrived.

    4/22/2012 – Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.

    All of these cases and more were reviewed at http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/, with the conclusion that mass shooting events stopped by civilians (both armed and unarmed) result in loss of fewer lives than mass shooting events stopped by law enforcement. Mass shooting events stopped by armed civilians result in the the loss of even fewer lives than those by unarmed civilians.

    • Buddi74

      And here’s a 160+ page archive of armed citizens stopping other crimes, not just mass shooting events: http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

      • seattlenerd

        Let us be clear. Are there any examples of mass shootings having been stopped before they started? Shouldn’t that be the criterion? “Well, he killed a dozen people before NRA member Annie Shurshot took him out — could have been much worse.” But at a dozen, isn’t it still pretty bad?

        In other words, the *best* that you could hope for is that armed bystanders could keep a bad situation from becoming worse. But there’s no guarantee that armed bystanders would not make a bad situation worse. Imagine, for example several movie-goers in Aurora had been armed, and started shooting — in a darkened, noisy, and smoke-filled theatre.

        You don’t get to cherry-pick, NRA. You certainly don’t get to rely upon hypothetical scenarios that have never occurred.

        • http://clintjcl.tumblr.com/ ClintJCL

          Yes, that is the best that you can hope for. What are YOU hoping for? That it doesn’t happen in the first place. That’s like asking God why bad things happen.

        • shannon

          It is all about the “what if’s” that go through the shooter’s head as he is planning his shooting. Mass shootings will continue to happen in places that ban guns. The very possibility that there may be someone there with a gun will greatly reduce the chances of it happening in the first place.

    • jefisher

      I only researched one of these b/c, well, the first one was kind of misleading. In the Kiarron Parker case you can substitute ‘member of congregation’ (was he? maybe) with the more informative phrase ‘off duty police officer’.

    • Ssider

      Even if your examples were all truly ones of armed civilians stopping murderers does it even dawn on you that the original events wouldn’t have happened with tighter gun control laws.
      Your first example, man shoots 3 before being apprehended: That is great for the next 5 or 6, but the first 3 are already gone.
      Fact is that countries with tight gun control laws do not have these incidents at all.

      • ChrisSanchez

        The original post here is totally, 100% debunked. It should be taken down.

      • James1754

        You might want to look at the mass shootings in both Norway and Germany. The last one in Norway had 77 killed and the weapon used is prohibited by law.

        • Ssider

          Per capita rates of gun violence are lower, period. Yes, bad things can happen, but odds are greater with less gun control.
          I am paraphrasing someone else here, perhaps badly, but someone else was quoted that when one loonie tried to blow up an airplane with a shoe bomb we all have to take off our shoes at an airport. 62 mass shooting since 1982 and we actually have less restrictions on guns.

          • James1754

            I was a cop for thirty years. Laws do not stop people from committing crimes. Connecticut has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. The murderer was 20 years old, between the federal and state laws it was illegal for him to possessed any of the weapons he used to murder these people.
            The laws did nothing to stop him.

          • Ssider

            You are former law enforcement, and I deeply repsect that (espeically as I live in a city where even the cops are not safe)…however you can perhaps shed light on something I cannot know;

            When does an average person need to have a high capacity magazine? And what purpose do assault rifles serve to the average gun owner?
            I am not expert, but I was always taught that if you aren’t going to protect yourself with 5-6 rnds you are unlikely to protect yourself with a bannana clip.

            And I believe that does mean something! Avergage folks are not going to be great marksmen without a lot of training. If the shooter had to reload might he have stopped? Might that have given time for others to escape? For someone else to stop him?
            In all of this the easy message to lose is that we don’t want all guns banned. I own firearms, I don’t want to choose between giving them up or being an unprosecuted felon. But never in my adult life did I seriously think I would want an M4 or MP5. What am I going to do with it?

          • James1754

            First of all we do not at this time know what type of weapon was used in the shooting.
            I have never understood the idea of limiting what a person can own. There is no difference, to speak of between the amount of rounds that a person can shoot with a 15 round magazine, versus a 10 round magazine. I carried a 7 round .45 for years and was quite comfortable when most of my agency was carrying high capacity .40′s.
            The simple fact is that this is all media/politician generated feel good discussion. There are literally millions of high capacity magazines in existence today. Passing a law limiting then will solve nothing.
            The question is not why does a law abiding citizen need a semi-automatic version of a military rifle, but why should he be denied access to one. Statically these guns do not exist in the crime stats, criminals do not use them to commit crimes. So banning them will solve nothing, and by the way they were never banned in the last so called ban, you just could not buy one with a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug. Did not effect much, just feel good legislation.
            As to your question about the shooter, the problem here, and this is a personal opinion, is the “gun free zone” which all schools are. Nearly every mass shooting in the last 25 years has occurred in a “gun free zone”. It does not take a lot of marksman ship to walk up to people cowering in a corner, because they do not have the ability to defend themselves, and shoot them.
            If you want to see this type of thing ended, arm the teachers. Israel did this after several terrorist incidents in schools in the 70′s and they have not had any since.
            And M4′s and MP5′s are full auto weapons and not available to the general public. If you have never fired a full auto weapon they are fun to shoot, expensive, but fun, that is what people do with them.

          • Ssider

            Last I heard from multiple public news sources he used an M-16 variant with a 30 rnd clip. The ammo he used was especially vile (some type of shredder).

            As for arming teachers/schools, there’s the added risk plus the cost of training and arming them. Israel might do it, but that whole country is a armed to the teeth. I’d hate to see that here.

            I agree though, nothing wrong with paying for the privelige of using an automatic weapon in a secure environment.

            Interesting though, that we almost never see these type of incidents from hunting rifles. I don’t know why that is, but no one has done a mass shooting with one. Probably because the weapon does not cycle as fast?….the ammo capacity is smaller.

            Plus, as a trained responder, if you do have to apprehend some lunatic would you rather be facing a deer rifle or a Bushmaster?

            2 simple things would help (not prevent)

            1) ammunition types (no cop killers, no exploding rounds)

            In this case, as horrid as his actions were, if his rounds were just ball ammo might some of those kids survived?

            2) ban the high clips and offer rewards/replacements for the old clips.

            Here in Chicago we had programs to give kids new sneakers in exchange for guns (as well as other incentives.)

            You probably are laughing as you read that but it does work. We went from about 900-1000 murders per year in the 80s down to about 500 within the city limits. Population of the city proper is down a bit, but only by a few percent.

          • James1754

            As far as mass shooting with a hunting rifle, try the Texas Bell Tower shooting, 1 August 1966.

            The rifle is not a variant of the M16, it is a variant of the simi-automatic AR-15. The difference is in the internal workings of the weapons. The basic design of the simi-automatic has been around since the early 1900’s.
            The type of bullets used, I cannot find anything about this and doubt that they were anything special as he stole the gun from his mother and most people use ball(full metal jacketed) for practice. As to your question of if it would have made a difference, no as the victims were all shot multiple times (it appears his intent was to kill as many as possible). And as I said earlier it does not take a large amount of skill to walk up to someone and shoot them.
            As to the so called “Cop Killer” and “exploding” bullets (the bullet is the projectile, the entire assembly is called a cartridge or a round) they do not exist. These descriptive (emotional) terms were invented by the politicians/media. I spent years listening to the untruths being told by the anti-firearms crowd about the horrors of certain types of expanding bullets and that they should not be used by law enforcement.
            As for the magazines (clips do not have springs in them), there are literally millions of them on the market, most owned by law abiding citizens who will never break any law. These do not in and of themselves cause any problems, they are just another “feel good” item for the politicians and anti-gun folks to rant about. And it takes very little time to reload a magazine fed weapon. An unintended consequence of the Clinton gun ban, with it’s 10 round magazine limit, was that many newly designed compact pistols were made. It does not make sense to make a large gun to hold only ten rounds.
            As for your buy back programs, most of that is also feel good politics and does not have any effect on crime. Crooks do not turn in their guns, they just sell them to someone else. Most of the items in the buy back programs are dysfunctional.
            The whole thing here is that we are not addressing the two main issues.
            1) You cannot respond to an incident like this if you do not have people on the scene. If you have to wait for the police to arrive, it will always be too late. One thing I learned as a cop was that if I needed a weapon, be it pepper spray, Taser or a pistol, I had to have it on my person. I did not have time to go and get it and then respond to the emergency. To prevent this from happening again there must be armed persons in the schools.
            2) We must address the mental health laws in this country. The way we take care of people who have mental health issues is a disgrace. The murderer needed help and was not given it. Hind sight is always 20/20 so it is easy to see that almost all of these people who have committed mass murders had mental problems that could have been addressed with a better system.

          • seattlenerd

            For what it’s worth, we *do* know exactly what kinds of weapons were used. There were two semiautomatic pistols with high capacity magazines, and an assault rifle, also with high capacity magazine. According to the coroner, the kids were all shot with the rifle, from 3 to 11 times.

            About 100 bullets found children. It appears to be the case that many hundreds of rounds were, in fact, fired.

          • James1754

            When last I looked they had not released any information on which weapons were used.

          • DilloTank

            So if you were trying to stop this shooter, how many bullets would you want in your gun? 7? or more?

          • DilloTank

            When they are being shot at. If someone is shooting at you, you want to have as many rounds as possible.

            Guns with high capacity magazines are the weapon of choice for people that want to protect themselves. Most murders are committed with hand guns.

          • James1754

            Gun crime was almost nonexistent in the UK before the firearms ban. Since the ban gun crime has grown exponentially, with the almost unheard of home invasion leading the way.

          • Ssider

            Hmm…quick reference shows gun crime decreasing btwn 2010-2011 in the UK.

            Per capita rates are about 9 per 100000 in the US and 0.25 (that is 1/4) per 100000 in the UK during 2011.

            It really is about numbers, not anecdotes

          • James1754

            If you are talking about murder, that is one thing. Check the assaults and robbery.

          • DilloTank

            Yes, you are correct, violent crime in England has gone through the roof after the gun ban.

      • DilloTank

        No, there is absolutely no evidence to support your thesis. In fact the evidence indicates the opposite.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Red-Wine/1684360623 Red Wine

        47 people killed in China in a 2 month period. They were hacked to death rather than shot, though — is that better?

      • shannon

        Isn’t three better than the next 5 or 6? Chicago has tight gun control laws and they had over 500 homicides in 2012!

    • ebin

      Your examples are misleading, and you seemed to have forgotten that a mass shooting has to have at least 4 people killed by the gunman. To the best of many people and orginizations’ knowledge, no civilian has ever stopped a mass shooting because of his gun.

      • http://clintjcl.tumblr.com/ ClintJCL

        What are you talking about? It’s all laid out in a far more methodical, fair, and above-board manner in this article right here:

        http://www.examiner.com/article/analyzing-shooting-rampage-statistics-after-newport-school-shooting

      • DilloTank

        These ‘people and organizations’ you speak of are simply unaware of the facts. Most mass shootings stop immediately when armed resistance is encountered. Many times armed citizens are the ones that provide that armed resistance. You are just not looking in the right places for the information.

        The leftist media, that is almost all media in Europe, and most in the U.S., never cover stories that don’t promote their leftist agenda.

        Unsurprisingly, there are no statistics on people that weren’t killed in mass shootings.

    • Tom_P

      So why even bother with a legal system or police? Surely we could simply spend that money to issue everyone a side-arm, replaced at decade intervals.

      • DilloTank

        Are you aware that you just used the logical fallacy called the ‘false dilemma’? Your teachers did a poor job of teaching you to think logically.

        • Tom_P

          And to you they never taught hyperbole!

  • ChrisSanchez

    Obviously – the ones that were stopped by definition don’t make it onto your list!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Traje-Desastre/100002904094077 Traje Desastre

      Is there no journalism left anywhere? Seriously? You guys do know that the Clackamas mall shooting was stopped by a civilian who didn’t fire a single shot, right? Or did they not mention that on MSNBC?

      I take comfort in the fact that while our government may not be transparent, at least our media is.

  • BasBux

    C’mon. I’m in favor of gun control and even this is weak sauce.

    First, the number of mass shootings is sufficiently rare that I wouldn’t derive ANY cause / effect relationship from the data set.

    Second, it’s still relatively difficult to have a CC in a lot of places, making it none too surprising that someone else didn’t put a mass shooter down.

    • moderatesunite

      it’s true the relative small number of mass shootings make this difficult to assess statistically, nevertheless it does follow the general trend with gun related shootings overall

      • BasBux

        Well, yes.

        The majority of gun deaths are the result of suicide, for one thing. So I wouldn’t expect that to be even relevant.

        Also, I’m not sure what you mean by the second point. Could expand on the “general trend with gun related violence overall” point?

        I know statistically, concealed carry permit holders commit crimes of violence at a *much* lower rate than the general population. So I’m trying to figure out what you’re getting at.

        • moderatesunite

          I mean that the violent crime rte has been headed steadily downward since the early 1990′s(in most cases including gun related gun violence.
          In the most recent years however, gun related violent crimes and deaths actually ticked up slightly even, as violent crime overall continued to tick down slightly.

          It’s true that people who go through a lot of training, are much less likely to be violent with their weapons, but restrictions are rarely for them, they are to make i more difficult for the untrained to obtain the most dangerous weapons

  • Scadush

    There is no evidence whatsoever that disarming citizens contributes to a reduction in violent crime. None. Even the liberal standard-bearers from the Brady Center to Disarm Every Law-Abiding Person in the World no longer say restricting legal ownership of firearms keeps criminals from using firearms to commit crimes. The only question is: are gun-hating liberals just deluded, or are they unbelievably stupid? I don’t see why they can’t be both, but I also don’t see where it would matter. If every liberal was locked up in a secure containment facility for the mentally disadvantaged, the country would be a safer place … and a happier one, too.

    • moderatesunite

      actually there is quite a bite of evidence.
      The United states has 4% of the world’s population, 50% of the world’s guns, and a violent crime and murder rate that are both more than double that of any other industrialized country.
      states with one of 3 types of gun control laws have significantly lower violent crime rates than the national average.

      Of course we need to recognize that whether we like it or not the right to bear arms is in the constitution, and that the large number in the US make it unreasonable to even attempt a “ban.” but positive steps can be taken to ensure they are stored securely, that mentally unstable people can’t have them handed to them same day without a background check, and that a single weapon with ase of access doesn’t have the power to kill dozens without reloading.

      we don’t even perform background checks in many places in this country, That’s absurd. You don’t have the right to shout fire in crowded theatre despite the freedom of speech. likewise you don’t have the right to won a tank or a bomb despite the right to bear arms and you shouldn’t have the right to own a single weapon with the power to kill hundreds in an instant.

  • Tom_P

    So I guess we’re just sort of accepting our dark joke of a mental health care system? Well, that was predictable.

  • Chris

    This is simple sample bias: Most incidents where a civilian (armed or unarmed) confronts the shooter end with 2.3 deaths on average as opposed to 14 when this doesn’t happen. Mother Jones’ cut off for defining a mass shooting is more than 4 deaths.

    http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

    Therefore, obviously mass shootings aren’t stopped by a civilian using a gun because shootings stopped by a civilian (using a gun or not) don’t turn into mass shootings.

    Actually, MJ’s stats alone might make the strong argument that the difference between a shooting and a MASS shooting is whether an armed civilian is present or not.

    Come on, hopefully people are smarter than this. This is either mind numbing boneheadedness or deliberate deception.

    • ExLonghorn

      Let’s include that fact that only 2% of citizens are licensed to carry a concealed weapon, and that the vast majority of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones, and you make it a virtual certainly that an armed citizen will NOT EVEN BE PRESENT. But they completely missed or ignored this obvious flaw in their statistics.

      • http://clintjcl.tumblr.com/ ClintJCL

        In the cases where no armed citizen is present, gun control will not matter. Saying it would make a difference is like saying the drug war makes there be less pot out there. Nope. Pretty sure everyone who wants it can get it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/robert.edmonds.98 Robert Edmonds

    http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

    Look at the difference in the carnage when stopped by armed civilians vs. waiting for the police to arrive. If you still prefer the latter option your argument is completely devoid of logic.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hellfighter-Mark-Steel/100000946065866 Hellfighter Mark Steel

    Mother Jones must be ignorant of reality. Simple statement,,, There always has and always will be evil people on Earth and disarming good people will only allow the evil ones to dominate. For good to triumph over evil, good must have equal or greater power. This has been proven again and again in EVERY society that has disarmed their good citizens.

  • http://www.facebook.com/timothy.c.mcdonald.1 Timothy C. McDonald

    Mother Jones argument is that if an armed citizen STOPPED the shooting, it doesn’t qualify as a mass shooting, because not enough people were killed……..In otherwords, Mother Jones ‘study’ is a hack job article based on smoke and mirrors.

  • DilloTank

    This article is a blatant fabrication. Law abiding citizens that are armed stop shootings quite frequently. There have been multiply mass shootings quite recently that I am aware of where the shooter was stopped by an armed citizen. The leftist media ignores these stories, but that does not mean they do not happen.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Red-Wine/1684360623 Red Wine

    Stopped one yesterday — in Atlanta, at a school.

  • shannon

    This article is correct, because in every “mass shooting”, the location was a gun free zone. Instances where there was a civilian (or off duty cop) with a gun are not considered mass shootings because you have to have a certain number dead to be considered a mass shooting. Show me an instance where a mass shooting happened when someone was able to fire back!

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